[mou] Re: [mnbird] listing game
Jim Williams
two-jays@att.net
Tue, 09 Dec 2003 09:29:12 -0800
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Jeff makes a good case for rules. They are important in any game. Be
prepared to study here, however, to achieve mastery. While the American
Birding Association expresses its rules for listing birds throughout the
North American continent and coastal waters in 79 words, Minnesota listing
rules consume something over 750 words.
Jim Williams
Wayzata
From: "Jeff Stephenson" <stephensonjeff@charter.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 09:15:15 -0600
To: "mou" <mou-net@biosci.cbs.umn.edu>, "mnbird" <mnbird@lists.mnbird.net>
Subject: [mnbird] listing game
I will admit from the start that I am an avid bird lister. I enjoy trying to
maximize how many species I can see in North America, Minnesota, each of its
counties, how many I can see in one day in each of the counties, how many I
can see in my yard, and on and on. Part of the listing pleasure is to
compare my result with other birders. To make this comparison useful it
should be assumed that each birder used the same rule set. Mike mentions
below that each person listing can choose to play by the rules or not and
that it's a personal choice. He is correct. However, I would like to make
the case for playing by the rules. If a golfer plays 9 holes of golf and
reports a score, most people would assume they played by the rules of golf.
If they didn't then they are simply misreporting what their golfing skill
really is. This may impress the naive but in the end the non-rule player is
only kidding themselves. If I bird with someone and I realize they ignore
the listing rules then it means that all of their listing records are
suspect in my mind. So I tend to ignore what they report since it has no
meaning. My recommendation to the beginning lister is DON'T break the rules.
If you start adding birds to your list that shouldn't be there and then
later after you've gained some experience you decide to follow the rules.
All you previous listing is contaminated unless you can go back and remove
the rulebreaking species. You will regret having started off in such a
manner.
Jeff Stephenson
Home phone: 507 289 7635
Cell phone: 507 254 8194
email: stephensonjeff@charter.net
web page: www.geocities.com/jjeffstephenson
<http://www.geocities.com/jjeffstephenson>
Rochester Mn, 55902, Olmsted County
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Hendrickson <mailto:smithville4@charter.net>
To: MOU <mailto:MOU-net@cbs.umn.edu>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 4:59 PM
Subject: [mou] Costa/listing game
Hello:
Well I am certainly not a listing police guy but I have some answers to
anyone who plays the listing game and regards to the Costa Hummingbird.
This was taken out of the listing supplement. Also remember when you play
the listing game you can follow the rules or you can choose not to. Its all
a personal choice and NO one will attack you for not doing either. So IF you
play the listing game here are the rules from the listing supplement.
This quote is taken directly from the MOU Listing Supplement rules:
"The bird must be alive, wild, and unrestrained when observed.
Netted or trapped birds are not countable while in captivity and a bird
is considered still under the influence of captivity after its release
until it regains the activities and movements of a bird which had not
been captured. A bird is under the influence of captivity during its
initial flight away from its release point and during subsequent
activity reasonably influenced by the captivity, such as initial
perching and preening or early sleeping or roosting near the release
point. A nocturnal species released during daylight which goes to roost
near the point of release is considered under the influence of captivity
until the next nightfall when it has left its roost and begun normal
nocturnal activities.
OK OK what about the Anna's Hummingbird in Grand Marais or the Anna's in the
Twin Cities. YES the homeowner put out a shelter heated box and added food
in thier so the hummingbird can be sort of protected while it fed and also a
place to roost in if the hummingbird to choose to roost in those heated
boxes. In all those cases the hummingbird was able to freely fly and go
about its business outdoors and not under human control. The hummer still
had to deal with the weather/predators and etc.. It was treated no
differently than Carolina Wrens coming to heated feeders with grubs in it.
In this case the bird was lured into a basement and doors were shut. The
hummingbird is now in captivity. When birders came to photo the hummer it
was a captive bird and if those birders wanted to know if they can count it
They have two options, either go by the listing rules and not count the bird
but just admired it or go ahead and add the bird to thier personal list.
Either way its your choice.
Now in my opinion I am sure the hummingbird will be added onto the Minnesota
Bird List. The hummingbird was seen outdoors on its own coming to thier
feeder. It wasn't initially ID as a Costa till it was filmed by some TV crew
and a birder knew its identity when he saw the clip on TV. The bird was
housed in a basement and was confided and its movement were controlled by
the homeowner. Its just like that Calliope Hummingbird record. The
Hummingbird looked like a Calliope but no one was absolutely sure until it
was mist netted and positive ID was than made. So the hummingbird was
unidentified, lured in the basement, filmed, and than it was identified.
So I am fairly certain it will be added to the state list. Again I am not
speaking for MOURC because I am not a MOURC member I am just giving my
opinion regarding to adding the bird to the state list. Also remember MOURC
doesn't govern listing rules/nor creates them or spends time with them. They
don't care about lists or listing rules.
I hope this helps.
Mike Hendrickson
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<TITLE>Re: [mnbird] listing game</TITLE>
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Jeff makes a good case for rules. They are important in any game. Be prepar=
ed to study here, however, to achieve mastery. While the American Birding As=
sociation expresses its rules for listing birds throughout the North America=
n continent and coastal waters in 79 words, Minnesota listing rules consume =
something over 750 words. <BR>
<BR>
Jim Williams<BR>
Wayzata<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<B>From: </B>"Jeff Stephenson" <stephensonjeff@charter.net>=
<BR>
<B>Date: </B>Tue, 9 Dec 2003 09:15:15 -0600<BR>
<B>To: </B>"mou" <mou-net@biosci.cbs.umn.edu>, "mnbird=
" <mnbird@lists.mnbird.net><BR>
<B>Subject: </B>[mnbird] listing game<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">I will admit from the start that I am an =
avid bird lister. I enjoy trying to maximize how many species I can see in N=
orth America, Minnesota, each of its counties, how many I can see in one day=
in each of the counties, how many I can see in my yard, and on and on. Part=
of the listing pleasure is to compare my result with other birders. To make=
this comparison useful it should be assumed that each birder used the same =
rule set. Mike mentions below that each person listing can choose to play by=
the rules or not and that it's a personal choice. He is correct. However, I=
would like to make the case for playing by the rules. If a golfer plays 9 h=
oles of golf and reports a score, most people would assume they played by th=
e rules of golf. If they didn't then they are simply misreporting what their=
golfing skill really is. This may impress the naive but in the end the non-=
rule player is only kidding themselves. If I bird with someone and I realize=
they ignore the listing rules then it means that all of their listing recor=
ds are suspect in my mind. So I tend to ignore what they report since it has=
no meaning. My recommendation to the beginning lister is DON'T break the ru=
les. If you start adding birds to your list that shouldn't be there and then=
later after you've gained some experience you decide to follow the rules. A=
ll you previous listing is contaminated unless you can go back and remove th=
e rulebreaking species. You will regret having started off in such a manner.=
<BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
Jeff Stephenson<BR>
Home phone: 507 289 7635<BR>
Cell phone: 507 254 8194<BR>
email: stephensonjeff@charter.net<BR>
web page: www.geocities.com/jjeffstephenson <http://www.geocities.com/jj=
effstephenson> <BR>
Rochester Mn, 55902, Olmsted County<BR>
----- Original Message ----- <BR>
<B>From:</B> Michael Hendrickson <mailto:smithville4@charter.net> &nb=
sp;<BR>
<B>To:</B> MOU <mailto:MOU-net@cbs.umn.edu> <BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 08, 2003 4:59 PM<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> [mou] Costa/listing game<BR>
<BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Hello:<BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Well I am certainly not a listing police =
guy but I have some answers to anyone who plays the listing game and regards=
to the Costa Hummingbird.<BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">This was taken out of the listing supplem=
ent. Also remember when you play the listing game you can follow the rules o=
r you can choose not to. Its all a personal choice and NO one will att=
ack you for not doing either. So IF you play the listing game here are the r=
ules from the listing supplement.<BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
This quote is taken directly from the MOU Listing Supplement rules:<BR>
<BR>
"The bird must be alive, wild, and unrestrained when obse=
rved.<BR>
<BR>
Netted or trapped birds are not countable while in capti=
vity and a bird<BR>
is considered still under the influence of captivity aft=
er its release<BR>
until it regains the activities and movements of a bird =
which had not<BR>
been captured. A bird is under the influence of captivit=
y during its<BR>
initial flight away from its release point and during su=
bsequent<BR>
activity reasonably influenced by the captivity, such as=
initial<BR>
perching and preening or early sleeping or roosting near=
the release<BR>
point. A nocturnal species released during daylight whic=
h goes to roost<BR>
near the point of release is considered under the influe=
nce of captivity<BR>
until the next nightfall when it has left its roost and =
begun normal<BR>
nocturnal activities.<BR>
<BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">OK OK what about the Anna's Hummingbird i=
n Grand Marais or the Anna's in the Twin Cities. YES the homeowner put out a=
shelter heated box and added food in thier so the hummingbird can be sort o=
f protected while it fed and also a place to roost in if the hummingbird to =
choose to roost in those heated boxes. In all those cases the hummingbird wa=
s able to freely fly and go about its business outdoors and not under human =
control. The hummer still had to deal with the weather/predators and e=
tc.. It was treated no differently than Carolina Wrens coming to heated feed=
ers with grubs in it.<BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">In this case the bird was lured into a ba=
sement and doors were shut. The hummingbird is now in captivity. When birder=
s came to photo the hummer it was a captive bird and if those birders wanted=
to know if they can count it They have two options, either go by the listin=
g rules and not count the bird but just admired it or go ahead and add the b=
ird to thier personal list. Either way its your choice.<BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Now in my opinion I am sure the hummingbi=
rd will be added onto the Minnesota Bird List. The hummingbird was seen outd=
oors on its own coming to thier feeder. It wasn't initially ID as a Costa ti=
ll it was filmed by some TV crew and a birder knew its identity when he saw =
the clip on TV. The bird was housed in a basement and was confided and its m=
ovement were controlled by the homeowner. Its just like that Calliope Hummin=
gbird record. The Hummingbird looked like a Calliope but no one was absolute=
ly sure until it was mist netted and positive ID was than made. So the hummi=
ngbird was unidentified, lured in the basement, filmed, and than it was iden=
tified. <BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">So I am fairly certain it will be added t=
o the state list. Again I am not speaking for MOURC because I am not a MOURC=
member I am just giving my opinion regarding to adding the bird to the stat=
e list. Also remember MOURC doesn't govern listing rules/nor creates them or=
spends time with them. They don't care about lists or listing rules. <BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">I hope this helps.<BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Mike Hendrickson<BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
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